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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with author and blogger John Michael

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Grier about science technology and the

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long descent our idea of our history is

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always that how we've come through the

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dark ages whatever they may be however

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we define them and now we're in a period

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of enlighten we've arrived one of the

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ways that I've taken to talking about

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this this fantasy of ours that we know

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the truth about the universe and

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everyone else in history was just plain

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stupid

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if this think of it as as a ritual drama

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ritual play like an Easter pageant or a

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Passion Play or you know the every

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culture has its ritual dramas where it's

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sort of in that the sacred truths of

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their society our ritual drama if you've

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seen any you know TV special or

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children's book about science and this

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kind of stuff you've got certain stock

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characters you got the lone visionary

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who sees the universe the way it really

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is

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you've got the conservative opposition

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who work on going on in doleful tones oh

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you can't do that and you have this

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particular conflict between them that's

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called it sort of lumbers through and

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history gets rewritten look seriously

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massively falsified to fit that paradigm

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and on today's

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episode

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John Michael Grier very interesting

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writer and blogger who was referred to

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me by skeptical listeners and I'm so

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glad you did another one of these guests

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that's come from suggestion that opened

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up new vistas for me he is a druid and

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we're certainly going to talk a little

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bit about that and he has some rather

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provocative ideas about science society

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and progress it's an interview I think

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you'll enjoy let's get right to it today

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we welcome John Michael Greer - skeptic

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Oh John is a prolific author having

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written well over 20 books including the

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long descent a user's guide to the end

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of the Industrial Age also the Druidry

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handbook spiritual practice rooted in

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the living Earth John is a practicing

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druid something that I'm anxious to talk

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to him about and learn more about that

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and as well as many other titles and we

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might touch on some of them in in the

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interview but there really are too many

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to go over there some fascinating

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fascinating titles and there's some

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fiction and nonfiction in there and

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we'll just kind of see where all that

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goes John it's a great pleasure to have

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you on thanks so much for joining me

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well thank you very much for helping me

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on Twitter to be on so your work was

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brought to my attention by several

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skeptical listeners and then most

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recently Eric reached out to you and

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asked you to come on I'm really glad he

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did I wasn't that familiar with your

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work and started reading it and I was

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like wow this is just brilliant stuff I

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was like highlighting left and right and

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I had a hard time getting through it

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because there was so much I just

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wondered absorb I'm gonna jump right

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into this rather than ask a lot about

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your history and that kind of stuff

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because I want to turn people on to some

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of the stuff that you've written and use

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that as a launching off point so one of

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these blog posts that really caught my

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attention was the clenched

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of reason written in july of 2014 and

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this is on your your website is it the

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well of yeah well is galibi gullible

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yeah the well of gala bez first of all

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since you do delve into the Druidry

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magic occult philosophy that's what the

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website is but maybe you can tell us

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because I couldn't find it anywhere

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what is the well of gala bees oh okay

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in the old Arthurian stories when merlin

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wasn't running on camelot bailing

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knights out of various troubles and

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doing all the usual stuff that they're

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working wizard does it's at least in

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legendary times like that he could be

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found at his favorite hangout which was

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at a place somewhere in britain at a

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well or founders spring called the well

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of gala bees so i have two blogs i have

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the the arch drug report which mostly

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deals with politics and economics the

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future of industrial society minor

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issues like that right but i wanted to

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do another blog that would get back to

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my home territory if you will and

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actually talk about the underlying

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philosophy and spirituality that i was

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bringing that so the idea just as merlin

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went you know back home to the well of

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gallagher is to hang out when he wasn't

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otherwise occupied i have this blog

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where i can hang out and post monthly

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discussions of things that are inter

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interest to me within the realm of

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spirituality and druid philosophy

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great and you know that intersection is

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something I hope we return to again and

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again in this dialogue because I think

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you are to be commended for trying to

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look at those intersections and that

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juxtaposition of industrial society

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culture the thing that we are immersed

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of and can't get out of and spirituality

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and in the larger sense of who we are

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and and I grew like very much that you

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take on that challenge we try and do it

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on that and this show as well it gets to

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the only kind of questions that really

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matter if you stay isolated in one or

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the other you wind up just looking

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rather ridiculous really because yeah we

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have to merge these two together so let

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me then jump back to a discussion

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I guess where that intersection I think

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becomes most visible and again this is a

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quote from this blog posts the clenched

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fist of reason you're right I've long

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since lost track of the number of times

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I've watched distinguished scientists

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admit with one breath that the things we

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experience around us aren't real and

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with the very next breath act as though

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matter energy space time and physical

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objects are real in the most pigheaded

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ly literal sort of objective sense

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expound on that a little bit okay this

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is something that a lot of people who

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deal with esoteric philosophy it it's

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one of those things you either tear your

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hair out or you shake your head because

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we all know we're all of us who have

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have a basic literacy in science we all

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know that when we when we pick up a

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coffee cup okay what's actually there is

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not what we're seeing not the you know

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be the color of the cup the coffee and

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they're all this kind of it's a pattern

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of energy stresses in space-time

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literally unimaginable to us we say

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atoms but water atoms again atoms are

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energy patterns in space-time that's all

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that's there our senses receive the

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various promptings from those from from

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those patterns in space-time our senses

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of course our sense organs are more

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patterns in space-time more of these

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energy stresses and that sets in in

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process this rube goldberg chain of

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transmissions interactions and

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processing create in our minds an image

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of a coffee cup full of coffee that

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images in mental image it's not a

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physical reality the physical reality is

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the pattern of energy stresses and

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that's all no we get this we know this

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and yet an enormous number of people

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including distinguished scientists

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although not limited them immediately go

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on from the having granted that you well

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of course that's true but the coffee cup

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is a physical coffee cup it's made of

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solid matter it's you know white is full

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of coffee as the none of that matters

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and in fact when you start paying

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attention to the ink

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occasions of the fact that what is going

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on what we experience in our senses is

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an image constructed in our minds out of

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the promptings that we get by way of

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this Rube Goldberg chain of connections

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from energy stresses in space-time to

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images in our mind once you start

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grasping that and realizing that there

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are things that can be done this wiggle

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room there that the ordinary sort of

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pigheaded ly literal scientific sense

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doesn't allow for then life gets

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interesting and that's one of the things

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that opens the door to magic but of

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course that's not that's precisely what

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the scientific community doesn't want

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they have it you know there's this long

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history there

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you mentioned magic you mentioned the M

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word and of course there's an a bristle

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I was just gonna say there's there's two

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ways to break that down on one hand

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there's wiggle room and on the other

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hand there is no wiggle room that's the

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problem with the paradigm that is in

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place the materialistic paradigm doesn't

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offer any wiggle room for consciousness

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being totally this product of this brain

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of this material one thing that

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processes things though in that rube

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goldberg way that you're talking about

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so as soon as we even want to explore

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anything that might fall out of that

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science needs to jam it back in or the

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whole enterprise kind of comes tearing

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down and we go gee how do we really

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measure things so I kind of see exactly

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what you're saying I think it kind of

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breaks down in a couple of ways so one

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it breaks down in the in the sense and

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the physics sense like you say you know

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what really is an atom and it's 99%

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nothing you know we've all heard that

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right so your coffee cup is really

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nothing and it's standing on a desk that

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is really nothing and how all that works

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we're not really sure and then there's

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this observer effect we don't even know

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if a tree falls in the forest and no

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one's there to hear it is there really a

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treat all those philosophical problems

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come really right to the front of the

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questions that physics is really asking

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and I think that as soon as we step into

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the absurdity of what we're being given

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in terms of answers for that we we have

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to

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look at anything approaching magic or

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anything approaching what might lie

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beyond that and we have to say gee were

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we really so sure that we should have

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dismissed that all along and to me

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that's what really kind of gets at this

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disconnect that you're talking about

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them between how they talk out of both

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sides of their mouth because they they

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have to resolve these two things that

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according to the game that they've set

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up their unresolvable this typically

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happens in the late stage of every

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civilization you get this pattern of

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ideas about what reality is supposed to

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be like and that's a very important

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thing to establish you know a kind of

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map okay you know the map of reality

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that allows you to figure out what's

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where every civilization has one but the

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problem is over time people become so

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fixated on the map that they forgot to

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check to make sure that it fits the

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reality and the number of anomalies the

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number of things that don't work just

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kind of piles up but people don't notice

275
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that because they're fixated on the map

276
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the map has to be defended it is true

277
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:40,250
when you start getting scientists going

278
00:11:47,950 --> 00:11:43,970
on about the laws of nature okay

279
00:11:50,650 --> 00:11:47,960
what stop and analyze that phrase the

280
00:11:53,620 --> 00:11:50,660
nature have laws who passed them how are

281
00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:53,630
they enforced it's a metaphor it's just

282
00:11:56,950 --> 00:11:55,130
a metaphor ultimately as a Christian

283
00:11:59,230 --> 00:11:56,960
metaphor with the serial number file off

284
00:12:01,780 --> 00:11:59,240
laws of nature originally the idea of

285
00:12:04,060 --> 00:12:01,790
God as a kind of medieval Kings handing

286
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down laws for you know his created

287
00:12:08,650 --> 00:12:06,380
subjects to obey but they've taken this

288
00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:08,660
metaphor lost track of the fact that

289
00:12:12,250 --> 00:12:10,370
it's a metaphor and are saying the laws

290
00:12:14,860 --> 00:12:12,260
of nature are what's real and if your

291
00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:14,870
experience doesn't fit our conception of

292
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the laws of nature your experience

293
00:12:20,650 --> 00:12:18,860
didn't happen if the effect is if the

294
00:12:24,340 --> 00:12:20,660
cause isn't known the effect didn't

295
00:12:28,090 --> 00:12:24,350
happen which is really bad logic yeah

296
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and not only is it bad logic but it's so

297
00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:30,530
out of touch with our day to day

298
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experience that I think it causes a lot

299
00:12:39,070 --> 00:12:37,010
of people to turn their back on science

300
00:12:41,260 --> 00:12:39,080
and it's amazing to me because I talked

301
00:12:43,810 --> 00:12:41,270
to so many scientists and they want to

302
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be moan the fact that science education

303
00:12:50,229 --> 00:12:44,329
is

304
00:12:52,809 --> 00:12:50,239
awareness or interest in science and I

305
00:12:56,350 --> 00:12:52,819
just want to say well you've just so

306
00:12:58,539 --> 00:12:56,360
failed at your core mission of answering

307
00:13:01,689 --> 00:12:58,549
the questions that we want to know about

308
00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:01,699
who are we really how do we fit in this

309
00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:03,769
world and you've so flubbed it

310
00:13:07,449 --> 00:13:05,839
and not only have you flubbed it but

311
00:13:10,809 --> 00:13:07,459
then you've filled it in with such

312
00:13:12,609 --> 00:13:10,819
absolute bunk that anyone can look at

313
00:13:15,129 --> 00:13:12,619
like that saying you know that my entire

314
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:15,139
experience isn't really an experience

315
00:13:19,749 --> 00:13:17,410
it's an illusion and I'm a biological

316
00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:19,759
robot and everything that has meaning

317
00:13:25,809 --> 00:13:21,920
and life isn't real it's all just an

318
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:25,819
illusion people subtly quietly they feel

319
00:13:28,749 --> 00:13:27,170
a little bit of respect for the guy in

320
00:13:30,429 --> 00:13:28,759
the white coat so they don't want to say

321
00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:30,439
it to his face but they just turn around

322
00:13:33,729 --> 00:13:32,569
and privately say you know we have to go

323
00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:33,739
on with our life because those people

324
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:35,569
don't have answers to anything and then

325
00:13:40,059 --> 00:13:37,970
they wonder why they don't want to

326
00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:40,069
listen to scientists talk about global

327
00:13:44,799 --> 00:13:42,110
warming or talk about anything else

328
00:13:47,199 --> 00:13:44,809
it's they've lost credibility because

329
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:47,209
then we're bumbled the big stuff they've

330
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:49,850
also lost credibility because they're

331
00:13:55,359 --> 00:13:52,730
not paying attention to the social and

332
00:13:57,759 --> 00:13:55,369
economic dimensions of science and a lot

333
00:13:59,829 --> 00:13:57,769
of other people are now I mean I'm sure

334
00:14:01,419 --> 00:13:59,839
many of our listeners remember the days

335
00:14:04,119 --> 00:14:01,429
when all cholesterol was bad for you

336
00:14:06,999 --> 00:14:04,129
when Holly unsaturated that's right for

337
00:14:09,189 --> 00:14:07,009
you scientists as science changes you

338
00:14:11,109 --> 00:14:09,199
know science changes the view of reality

339
00:14:12,970 --> 00:14:11,119
presented by science changes and it

340
00:14:15,129 --> 00:14:12,980
should over time as new discoveries are

341
00:14:17,229 --> 00:14:15,139
made old theories are discarded and so

342
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:17,239
on the problem is that at any given

343
00:14:21,639 --> 00:14:19,730
point your average scientist wants to be

344
00:14:23,379 --> 00:14:21,649
able to say this is true and have

345
00:14:26,829 --> 00:14:23,389
everybody outside the scientific

346
00:14:28,419 --> 00:14:26,839
community believe it on faith and then

347
00:14:30,579 --> 00:14:28,429
six weeks later it's well no this isn't

348
00:14:32,619 --> 00:14:30,589
true that is true and again we're

349
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:32,629
supposed to believe them on faith it

350
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:34,970
doesn't take that many times around that

351
00:14:40,479 --> 00:14:38,480
cycle before people start saying you're

352
00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:40,489
talking out of your backside you don't

353
00:14:44,530 --> 00:14:42,230
actually know what's true this is a

354
00:14:47,739 --> 00:14:44,540
tentative hypothesis which you'll change

355
00:14:48,970 --> 00:14:47,749
in another six weeks now when scientists

356
00:14:51,159 --> 00:14:48,980
say that to each other that's okay

357
00:14:52,869 --> 00:14:51,169
that's part of a community that's part

358
00:14:54,549 --> 00:14:52,879
of the process but when people outside

359
00:14:56,030 --> 00:14:54,559
the scientific community point that out

360
00:14:59,020 --> 00:14:56,040
the scientists they lose it

361
00:15:02,000 --> 00:14:59,030
because there's that unacknowledged

362
00:15:04,010 --> 00:15:02,010
habit that acknowledged habit of mind by

363
00:15:06,020 --> 00:15:04,020
which scientists think of themselves as

364
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:06,030
a priesthood they think of themselves as

365
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:08,370
the ones who know and everybody should

366
00:15:13,550 --> 00:15:10,770
accept what they say whatever it happens

367
00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:13,560
to be this week you noted global warming

368
00:15:17,450 --> 00:15:15,900
the I mean there's plenty of reasons why

369
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:17,460
global about climate change activism

370
00:15:20,690 --> 00:15:19,170
fell flat on its face

371
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:20,700
over the last decade but I think the

372
00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:23,010
major one is that they tried to rely on

373
00:15:26,630 --> 00:15:24,990
the prestigious science at a time when

374
00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:26,640
science doesn't have much prestige left

375
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:28,890
in this culture and so people are going

376
00:15:31,790 --> 00:15:30,180
okay the guys in the lab coats are

377
00:15:34,610 --> 00:15:31,800
saying this six weeks from now they'll

378
00:15:36,140 --> 00:15:34,620
be saying something different but if you

379
00:15:38,690 --> 00:15:36,150
point that out to the scientist types

380
00:15:40,460 --> 00:15:38,700
again they lose it they can't handle the

381
00:15:42,950 --> 00:15:40,470
people watching them rolling their eyes

382
00:15:45,830 --> 00:15:42,960
and going um yeah that's this week's

383
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:45,840
truth well I think the other problem

384
00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:47,610
with global warming and we've explored

385
00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:51,270
and on this show is that science is so

386
00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:55,710
married to political activism not active

387
00:15:59,600 --> 00:15:57,090
isn't that isn't the right word it's

388
00:16:02,750 --> 00:15:59,610
it's so married to the political power

389
00:16:06,290 --> 00:16:02,760
structure and it's married to economic

390
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:06,300
interest we just have a hard time buying

391
00:16:12,110 --> 00:16:09,180
any of that so when the whole thing came

392
00:16:14,030 --> 00:16:12,120
out with carbon trading worldwide carbon

393
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:14,040
trading and we thought oh my god these

394
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:16,410
guys are trying to create a trillion

395
00:16:21,380 --> 00:16:19,050
dollar trading business that's just

396
00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:21,390
gonna bankrupt us all in one way or

397
00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:23,460
another at least get into our pockets in

398
00:16:27,530 --> 00:16:25,500
another way I think a lot of people

399
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:27,540
turned around and said okay I get it

400
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:30,090
in some way or another this is some scam

401
00:16:35,630 --> 00:16:31,950
to get money and then we saw you know I

402
00:16:38,030 --> 00:16:35,640
had a friend who was directly involved

403
00:16:40,850 --> 00:16:38,040
in a start-up in the Silicon Valley that

404
00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:40,860
was developing some IRA know some kind

405
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:43,260
of weird carbon trading software app

406
00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:45,600
thing it was a pretty major thing they

407
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:46,950
had raised millions of dollars in

408
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:49,250
venture capital money and they went to

409
00:16:57,170 --> 00:16:53,730
Reverend Al Gore for participation and

410
00:17:00,470 --> 00:16:57,180
what they heard was hey if Al even steps

411
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:00,480
in the room he gets 25% of the deal

412
00:17:07,310 --> 00:17:04,890
going in you know so the amount of money

413
00:17:09,559 --> 00:17:07,320
and then so as many people have noted

414
00:17:13,129 --> 00:17:09,569
you look at the amount of money that

415
00:17:16,279 --> 00:17:13,139
Gore gained his net worth went well over

416
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:16,289
a billion dollars from this thing that

417
00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:18,569
he had going this idea this platform

418
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:21,240
that he had I mean it's hard to not have

419
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:24,089
a cynical view of the quote-unquote

420
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:27,120
science about climate change whatever

421
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:29,039
that science may be I mean I think we're

422
00:17:34,009 --> 00:17:32,370
all open to learning what the what the

423
00:17:36,830 --> 00:17:34,019
realities are and what we might be able

424
00:17:39,409 --> 00:17:36,840
to do but it's just hard to sort all

425
00:17:41,899 --> 00:17:39,419
that out isn't it it's hard to sort it

426
00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:41,909
out it's hot and it's especially hard

427
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:44,580
you know be because as you say there are

428
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:47,250
these very evident economic and

429
00:17:49,930 --> 00:17:48,480
political interests that are playing

430
00:17:52,999 --> 00:17:49,940
football with it

431
00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:53,009
I mean you talk about Al Gore on an on a

432
00:17:58,279 --> 00:17:55,470
global level you've got the way that the

433
00:18:02,060 --> 00:17:58,289
United States and and the EU were trying

434
00:18:04,820 --> 00:18:02,070
to use climate policy to shove the BRIC

435
00:18:06,830 --> 00:18:04,830
nations Brazil Russia India China into a

436
00:18:09,529 --> 00:18:06,840
one down position at the co-writer talks

437
00:18:14,389 --> 00:18:09,539
and so it was just another way to try to

438
00:18:16,009 --> 00:18:14,399
play a trade war and the BRIC nations

439
00:18:17,899 --> 00:18:16,019
are perfectly well aware of that

440
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:17,909
fraction they simply rolled their eyes

441
00:18:23,180 --> 00:18:19,850
and said yeah try another one

442
00:18:25,669 --> 00:18:23,190
because that's another thing is from

443
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:25,679
everything that I can see there is there

444
00:18:28,759 --> 00:18:26,970
I think there's reasonable evidence

445
00:18:30,499 --> 00:18:28,769
that's treating the atmosphere is an

446
00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:30,509
aerial sewer could up greenhouse gases

447
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:32,190
is a bad idea that it's causing climate

448
00:18:39,769 --> 00:18:35,730
disruption exactly what an astounding

449
00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:39,779
idea doesn't every know that from the

450
00:18:44,810 --> 00:18:42,809
last 40 years when we saw the ads of the

451
00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:44,820
smokestacks and all that we all know

452
00:18:48,919 --> 00:18:47,039
that so know that right question the

453
00:18:51,379 --> 00:18:48,929
question of how that's going to play out

454
00:18:54,220 --> 00:18:51,389
over the next few centuries is a complex

455
00:18:58,430 --> 00:18:54,230
one but there's also this other world of

456
00:19:00,889 --> 00:18:58,440
financial political geopolitical game

457
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:00,899
playing going on with global warming the

458
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:03,450
glut and organic climate change what

459
00:19:08,419 --> 00:19:05,250
Thomas Friedman and one of his few real

460
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:08,429
square hits called global weirding as an

461
00:19:12,980 --> 00:19:11,129
excuse so you've got to keep those two

462
00:19:14,210 --> 00:19:12,990
things separate and keep them both and

463
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:14,220
keep an eye on both of them at the same

464
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:17,250
time right you know maybe that leads

465
00:19:23,150 --> 00:19:19,679
back to we take a much bigger picture I

466
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:23,160
love what you've written about myth

467
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:24,960
and I think you're again in such a

468
00:19:29,510 --> 00:19:27,090
wonderful place to do it because you're

469
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:29,520
coming at it both from a very practical

470
00:19:34,370 --> 00:19:32,010
sense of what's going on in our culture

471
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:34,380
society but you're also looking at it

472
00:19:39,890 --> 00:19:37,440
from an occult philosophy standpoint

473
00:19:40,730 --> 00:19:39,900
which brings up a freshness to it here's

474
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:40,740
some of the things that you've written

475
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:43,710
our biggest myth is that we don't have

476
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:48,930
myths myth it our myth is progress

477
00:19:54,620 --> 00:19:52,310
our history is cycles rise and fall of

478
00:19:57,500 --> 00:19:54,630
civilization and let me do one more

479
00:19:59,480 --> 00:19:57,510
because I really love this one our only

480
00:20:01,460 --> 00:19:59,490
version of history most people in the

481
00:20:04,340 --> 00:20:01,470
industrial world are willing to consider

482
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:04,350
is one that explains how people have

483
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:06,720
stopped believing in all the obviously

484
00:20:12,110 --> 00:20:08,610
muddle-headed things we used to believe

485
00:20:14,410 --> 00:20:12,120
and learn to see that reality is sitting

486
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:14,420
right out in front of them all along

487
00:20:18,110 --> 00:20:15,570
mm-hmm

488
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:18,120
maybe you want to pull apart that last

489
00:20:24,050 --> 00:20:23,130
one I love the idea that our idea of our

490
00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:24,060
history

491
00:20:29,540 --> 00:20:26,030
is always that how we've come through

492
00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:29,550
the dark ages whatever they may be

493
00:20:36,260 --> 00:20:33,360
however we define them and now we're in

494
00:20:38,930 --> 00:20:36,270
a period of enlighten we've arrived and

495
00:20:41,450 --> 00:20:38,940
I think there's so many parallels with

496
00:20:44,090 --> 00:20:41,460
spirituality that we might want to talk

497
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:44,100
about is to because that's always the

498
00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:48,240
the real I guess gotcha in spirituality

499
00:20:52,970 --> 00:20:50,760
as well is to have this illusion that

500
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:52,980
we've somehow arrived some ways but

501
00:20:58,340 --> 00:20:56,400
let's not go there right away yeah the

502
00:21:01,160 --> 00:20:58,350
thing of the one of the ways that I've

503
00:21:03,410 --> 00:21:01,170
taken to talking about this this fantasy

504
00:21:04,910 --> 00:21:03,420
of ours that we know the truth about the

505
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:04,920
universe and everyone else in history

506
00:21:11,150 --> 00:21:07,410
was just plain stupid if the think of it

507
00:21:14,990 --> 00:21:11,160
as as a ritual drama ritual play like an

508
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:15,000
Easter pageant or a Passion Play or you

509
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:16,530
know the every culture has its ritual

510
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:18,930
dramas where it's sort of enact these

511
00:21:26,540 --> 00:21:22,110
the sacred truths of their society our

512
00:21:28,490 --> 00:21:26,550
ritual drama if you've seen any you know

513
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:28,500
TV special or children's book about

514
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:30,450
science and this kind of stuff you've

515
00:21:34,580 --> 00:21:32,610
got certain stock characters you got the

516
00:21:35,910 --> 00:21:34,590
lone visionary who sees the universe the

517
00:21:37,770 --> 00:21:35,920
way it really is

518
00:21:39,810 --> 00:21:37,780
got the conservative opposition who are

519
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:39,820
kind of going on doleful tones oh you

520
00:21:43,650 --> 00:21:41,770
can't do that and you have this

521
00:21:45,630 --> 00:21:43,660
particular conflict between them it's

522
00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:45,640
called sort of lumbers through and

523
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:49,150
history gets rewritten hello seriously

524
00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:52,090
massively falsified to fit that paradigm

525
00:21:58,170 --> 00:21:54,910
a classic example did you ever get

526
00:21:59,670 --> 00:21:58,180
taught that in 1492 when Columbus set

527
00:22:02,310 --> 00:21:59,680
sail most people thought the world was

528
00:22:05,070 --> 00:22:02,320
flat right yeah everybody gets taught

529
00:22:06,990 --> 00:22:05,080
that it's a lie right it takes 15

530
00:22:08,370 --> 00:22:07,000
minutes of research and any decently

531
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:08,380
stock library to prove that it is a

532
00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:09,370
complete lie

533
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:11,710
a manufactured falsehood dating from the

534
00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:16,000
19th century in 1492 the standard high

535
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:18,070
school astronomy textbook in yes they

536
00:22:22,890 --> 00:22:19,690
had high school astronomy textbooks in

537
00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:22,900
1914 1492 it was called this ferret was

538
00:22:26,430 --> 00:22:24,910
vijana sacra Bosco is in Latin of course

539
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:26,440
that was a Latin language everybody used

540
00:22:30,090 --> 00:22:28,690
for scholarship and it starts with a set

541
00:22:33,150 --> 00:22:30,100
of proofs that the world is round the

542
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:33,160
world is a sphere it is much smaller

543
00:22:37,530 --> 00:22:34,510
than the Sun in much bigger than the

544
00:22:39,570 --> 00:22:37,540
moon and the stars are so far away that

545
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:39,580
you don't even bother to talk about it

546
00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:42,970
and the proofs are accurate ok this was

547
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:45,220
this everybody who everybody who could

548
00:22:50,490 --> 00:22:47,410
read who had more than a basic reading

549
00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:50,500
knowledge of Latin in 1492 knew the

550
00:22:55,530 --> 00:22:53,320
world was round Columbus had an

551
00:22:58,620 --> 00:22:55,540
inaccurate measure of how big around the

552
00:23:00,270 --> 00:22:58,630
earth was he thought that Asia was

553
00:23:03,180 --> 00:23:00,280
worthy and it was where were the

554
00:23:04,740 --> 00:23:03,190
Americas are he was wrong and if there

555
00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:04,750
hadn't been two undiscovered continent

556
00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:06,070
for the way he and all of his crew would

557
00:23:10,830 --> 00:23:07,600
have starved it up in the middle Pacific

558
00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:10,840
but so so it but but we have this idea

559
00:23:14,190 --> 00:23:12,430
we've got to have the lone visionary who

560
00:23:17,790 --> 00:23:14,200
is right we've got to have the doleful

561
00:23:21,420 --> 00:23:17,800
chorus of conservatives and who you know

562
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:21,430
who always say the same things ok it's

563
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:23,410
always ole you can't do that oh you're

564
00:23:30,690 --> 00:23:25,330
going to upset me the balance of the

565
00:23:32,610 --> 00:23:30,700
cosmos oh you and and every single quote

566
00:23:35,460 --> 00:23:32,620
advance notice the metaphor there

567
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:35,470
science advances toward what in what

568
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:37,930
direction the direction of progress what

569
00:23:43,950 --> 00:23:40,570
to find something is progress because

570
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:43,960
it's close to us the fantasy is that we

571
00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:45,850
are the pinnacle of the cosmos we are

572
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:48,220
the gate through which everyone has to

573
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:49,290
go to get to the future

574
00:23:52,610 --> 00:23:50,970
that's why people talk about you know

575
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:52,620
this these people being back in the

576
00:23:57,860 --> 00:23:54,330
Stone Age these people back in the

577
00:24:01,250 --> 00:23:57,870
Middle Ages people in 20% in the 21st

578
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:01,260
century world okay everybody else is on

579
00:24:05,780 --> 00:24:03,330
us is on the Marshall progress which

580
00:24:08,810 --> 00:24:05,790
means inevitably to us that's the

581
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:08,820
fantasy that's the mythology well you

582
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:10,290
know it's interesting you bring up

583
00:24:16,220 --> 00:24:13,530
Columbus because it also points out the

584
00:24:18,290 --> 00:24:16,230
things that we edit out of that history

585
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:18,300
as well and I think that's an important

586
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:21,120
part of the the myth of progress in the

587
00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:25,530
myth of constant improvement towards the

588
00:24:30,410 --> 00:24:27,510
pinnacle of our existence I mean

589
00:24:32,510 --> 00:24:30,420
Columbus was a horrible horrible mass

590
00:24:34,940 --> 00:24:32,520
murderer right and he wiped out well

591
00:24:37,460 --> 00:24:34,950
over a million people and he was he was

592
00:24:40,010 --> 00:24:37,470
conscious about doing it if you really

593
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:40,020
read his letters they are history and

594
00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:41,700
this is one thing I hadn't heard you

595
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:44,100
really speak on or write on and love to

596
00:24:47,660 --> 00:24:45,960
hear your thought is you know some

597
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:47,670
people have pointed out some historians

598
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:48,810
have really pointed out and I've taken

599
00:24:56,660 --> 00:24:52,170
notice that our history is so much tied

600
00:24:58,940 --> 00:24:56,670
to this mass murder butchery in gore at

601
00:25:02,540 --> 00:24:58,950
a really hand to hand level that we

602
00:25:04,970 --> 00:25:02,550
can't really get you know so Genghis

603
00:25:07,370 --> 00:25:04,980
Khan or until the hunt of those people

604
00:25:10,820 --> 00:25:07,380
you know each guy had to lop off the

605
00:25:13,220 --> 00:25:10,830
head of 10 of the captives that you know

606
00:25:16,670 --> 00:25:13,230
we took over the hand-to-hand combat of

607
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:16,680
the Romans fighting killing people and

608
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:18,930
now we said now we have people sitting

609
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:22,490
in an air-conditioned room in Nevada

610
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:25,050
controlling drones by satellite blowing

611
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:27,690
up wedding parties and children yeah

612
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:29,610
well there's two ways looking at that

613
00:25:33,530 --> 00:25:31,110
there's one way of looking at and say

614
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:33,540
well we're so far removed from it now or

615
00:25:38,020 --> 00:25:35,370
the other way of looking at it there we

616
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:38,030
are the descendants of the Vikings

617
00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:41,760
so that post-traumatic stress disorder

618
00:25:46,790 --> 00:25:43,980
that has been handed down over a

619
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:46,800
generation of generation is still right

620
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:48,960
there and right beneath the surface so

621
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:51,360
when we see the photos of ABBA gray and

622
00:25:56,420 --> 00:25:53,850
we want to go oh my god that's not us

623
00:26:00,050 --> 00:25:56,430
it's like hell yes that's us that's

624
00:26:02,450 --> 00:26:00,060
within us yeah social social primates

625
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:02,460
most social primates are pretty violent

626
00:26:06,380 --> 00:26:05,220
you know chimpanzees defend their

627
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:06,390
territories with violence and

628
00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:08,130
occasionally stronger band will wipe out

629
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:10,440
a weaker one human beings have been

630
00:26:13,780 --> 00:26:12,000
doing that for probably about as long as

631
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:13,790
they're human beings we are not

632
00:26:18,740 --> 00:26:16,290
naturally good loving peaceful and kind

633
00:26:22,940 --> 00:26:18,750
or any of that kind of stuff we have the

634
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:22,950
capacity to be something other than than

635
00:26:27,980 --> 00:26:26,640
murderers we do have that potential but

636
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:27,990
it's the potential that always have that

637
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:29,490
has to be striven for it doesn't happen

638
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:32,370
automatically I think in a lot of ways

639
00:26:36,890 --> 00:26:35,250
one of the great flaws of the popular

640
00:26:39,230 --> 00:26:36,900
spirituality of our time is this notion

641
00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:39,240
that human beings are naturally good and

642
00:26:44,450 --> 00:26:41,120
kind and sweet and purely peaceful and

643
00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:44,460
if we just get something or other out of

644
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:46,260
the way we can all be good and pure and

645
00:26:50,030 --> 00:26:48,720
sweet in kind of peaceful never mind the

646
00:26:51,530 --> 00:26:50,040
fact that the economic order that

647
00:26:54,140 --> 00:26:51,540
supports our comfortable middle-class

648
00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:54,150
lives depends on the suffering of

649
00:26:58,550 --> 00:26:55,520
millions of people in the third world

650
00:27:03,380 --> 00:26:58,560
exactly how do we resolve that what is

651
00:27:08,510 --> 00:27:03,390
the leap there from that to magic from

652
00:27:12,470 --> 00:27:08,520
the industrial need of our society to

653
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:12,480
consume to dominate to conquer and then

654
00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:16,290
the jump over to magic how do we and

655
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:19,110
what is what is magic in that sense well

656
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:20,970
I'll give you the definition that I

657
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:22,890
learned back in the day when I was first

658
00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:25,110
doing my studies is it magic as there

659
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:26,760
are the art and science of causing

660
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:28,890
change in consciousness in accordance

661
00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:32,610
with will okay now you'll notice that

662
00:27:37,340 --> 00:27:34,950
people tend to go oh because that

663
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:37,350
doesn't sound like you know Merlin and

664
00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:40,530
the cat's covered wings and stars but

665
00:27:44,020 --> 00:27:41,910
you'll notice it first of all it doesn't

666
00:27:46,670 --> 00:27:44,030
say whose consciousness is being changed

667
00:27:48,290 --> 00:27:46,680
one of the things that everybody has to

668
00:27:51,170 --> 00:27:48,300
learn in the course of magical training

669
00:27:54,610 --> 00:27:51,180
is that we all start out trying to

670
00:27:56,690 --> 00:27:54,620
manipulate the world around us and

671
00:27:57,950 --> 00:27:56,700
ultimately you do that you end up in

672
00:27:59,570 --> 00:27:57,960
this with the kind of thing we've been

673
00:28:01,340 --> 00:27:59,580
talking about because the world doesn't

674
00:28:03,650 --> 00:28:01,350
manipulate well it tends to mitigate

675
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,660
back it was this manipulation you lose

676
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:05,520
your temper you stop beating on it um

677
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:09,600
thanks go downhill from there back to

678
00:28:14,930 --> 00:28:11,490
the coffee cup that we talked about

679
00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:14,940
earlier we are assembling our world

680
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:17,580
out of the raw data of sensation

681
00:28:20,270 --> 00:28:19,770
according to patterns that we hold in

682
00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:20,280
our minds

683
00:28:24,260 --> 00:28:23,310
typically unconsciously very often the

684
00:28:26,540 --> 00:28:24,270
things that make our lives

685
00:28:27,620 --> 00:28:26,550
unsatisfactory have nothing to do with

686
00:28:29,540 --> 00:28:27,630
what's out there in the world and

687
00:28:32,660 --> 00:28:29,550
everything to do with how we assemble it

688
00:28:34,820 --> 00:28:32,670
and so the basic process one of the

689
00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:34,830
basic processes want a core processes

690
00:28:38,990 --> 00:28:36,720
and magical training is a recognition if

691
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:39,000
you start by changing yourself you start

692
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:41,330
by getting in under the hood of your own

693
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,490
mental images your own mental processes

694
00:28:48,170 --> 00:28:46,320
your own expectations your own emotional

695
00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:48,180
drives and you say ok how am I

696
00:28:54,350 --> 00:28:50,640
frustrating myself how am I making my

697
00:28:56,330 --> 00:28:54,360
life miserable because we all do and we

698
00:28:58,370 --> 00:28:56,340
spend our time beating on the rest of

699
00:29:00,500 --> 00:28:58,380
the world because we haven't realized

700
00:29:02,570 --> 00:29:00,510
that we are the source of our own

701
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:02,580
problems and the one common feature in

702
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:05,130
all of you in all of your problems is

703
00:29:10,670 --> 00:29:07,130
you and it's true of all of us

704
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:10,680
ok and so once you realize that you can

705
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:12,480
start disconnecting these various

706
00:29:18,410 --> 00:29:13,850
projections saying you know I'm

707
00:29:20,420 --> 00:29:18,420
offloading say all of this unsolved

708
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:20,430
anger for my child without offloading it

709
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:21,710
on these other people over there

710
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:24,000
producing this brittle angry tense

711
00:29:29,420 --> 00:29:25,890
relationship which blows up in violence

712
00:29:31,970 --> 00:29:29,430
ok how about if I stop that how about if

713
00:29:34,250 --> 00:29:31,980
I recognize that I'm carrying these

714
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:34,260
emotions around and that I can do

715
00:29:37,580 --> 00:29:36,090
something else with them other than sort

716
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:37,590
of project them blindly on to some other

717
00:29:40,910 --> 00:29:39,090
person whose skin color I don't like

718
00:29:42,890 --> 00:29:40,920
would say or office religion I don't

719
00:29:44,980 --> 00:29:42,900
like gurus politics that if people have

720
00:29:47,690 --> 00:29:44,990
all kinds of reasons for production

721
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:47,700
equally you know there's something that

722
00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:49,890
I think I want in in life whether it's

723
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:52,230
money whether it's you know hot sex

724
00:29:56,510 --> 00:29:54,000
lutely know much to be said for that but

725
00:29:59,210 --> 00:29:56,520
you get the idea you know I want to have

726
00:30:01,280 --> 00:29:59,220
this lifestyle and you stop and you

727
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:01,290
realize that what's happening is you're

728
00:30:04,850 --> 00:30:02,850
taking emotional needs from yourself and

729
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:04,860
projecting on these physical substances

730
00:30:09,290 --> 00:30:08,130
or they don't belong you know all the

731
00:30:10,430 --> 00:30:09,300
money in the world and you haven't met

732
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:10,440
the emotional need because of the

733
00:30:14,990 --> 00:30:12,240
emotional need is inside you is not in

734
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:15,000
the stacks of thousand-dollar bills so

735
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:17,310
with magical train you learn to detach

736
00:30:21,770 --> 00:30:19,170
those projections you're going to say

737
00:30:24,890 --> 00:30:21,780
that's not what's actually going on here

738
00:30:27,950 --> 00:30:24,900
is it I've created this world of

739
00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:27,960
phantasms onto which I'm loading all of

740
00:30:31,519 --> 00:30:28,830
my unresolved

741
00:30:32,299 --> 00:30:31,529
no problem and then wondering why life

742
00:30:36,740 --> 00:30:32,309
sucks

743
00:30:38,810 --> 00:30:36,750
we're instead you stop you say no this

744
00:30:41,299 --> 00:30:38,820
is internal to me I need to actually

745
00:30:43,909 --> 00:30:41,309
resolve this in myself and then guess

746
00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:43,919
what this huge problem that's been

747
00:30:49,460 --> 00:30:45,809
giving me was making life miserable for

748
00:30:52,159 --> 00:30:49,470
decades isn't there anymore because I

749
00:30:56,269 --> 00:30:52,169
know what's going on how does this

750
00:31:00,169 --> 00:30:56,279
relate to Druidry I know very very

751
00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:00,179
little about druids other than kind of

752
00:31:07,250 --> 00:31:04,590
the cartoon that I get white robe golden

753
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:07,260
sickle mistletoe Stonehenge oh yeah well

754
00:31:10,789 --> 00:31:08,850
I see pictures of you in the white robe

755
00:31:12,830 --> 00:31:10,799
there so now there's there's a

756
00:31:18,830 --> 00:31:12,840
ceremonial mistletoe I've been at

757
00:31:20,690 --> 00:31:18,840
Stonehenge so yes basically this is kind

758
00:31:22,879 --> 00:31:20,700
of a two-part explanation the ancient

759
00:31:24,259 --> 00:31:22,889
druids know the modern druids are not

760
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:24,269
ancient druids they're I'll get to that

761
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:26,970
the ancient druids were the priests and

762
00:31:30,830 --> 00:31:28,559
priestesses the wizards the

763
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:30,840
intellectuals scholars of the ancient

764
00:31:35,870 --> 00:31:32,970
Celtic peoples in Ireland Britain and

765
00:31:37,730 --> 00:31:35,880
what's now friends and we don't know

766
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:37,740
when they got started we don't know a

767
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:39,600
great deal about them all the surviving

768
00:31:44,870 --> 00:31:42,690
information amounts to about 10 pages in

769
00:31:46,669 --> 00:31:44,880
English translation and half of it

770
00:31:47,870 --> 00:31:46,679
contradicts the other half we know they

771
00:31:48,350 --> 00:31:47,880
were there we know they were kind of

772
00:31:49,460 --> 00:31:48,360
famous

773
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:49,470
we know they apparently had a very

774
00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:51,840
important part and then the Roman Empire

775
00:31:57,980 --> 00:31:53,460
showed up followed by Christianity and

776
00:32:00,019 --> 00:31:57,990
discord okay fast forward to the

777
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:00,029
beginning to do the early part of the of

778
00:32:04,879 --> 00:32:03,330
the 18th century England early

779
00:32:06,769 --> 00:32:04,889
Industrial Revolution you think the

780
00:32:10,419 --> 00:32:06,779
pollution is new not a chance

781
00:32:12,769 --> 00:32:10,429
smokestacks and coal seems everywhere

782
00:32:15,230 --> 00:32:12,779
casual devastation of the natural and

783
00:32:16,970 --> 00:32:15,240
natural environment and you have two

784
00:32:18,379 --> 00:32:16,980
ideologies that are being presented for

785
00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:18,389
public consumption there's the

786
00:32:22,250 --> 00:32:19,860
traditional ideology of dogmatic

787
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,260
Christianity and there's the newly

788
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:24,240
founded idea of dogmatic scientific

789
00:32:28,850 --> 00:32:26,970
materialism take your pick both of them

790
00:32:31,970 --> 00:32:28,860
by the way cheer reading the Industrial

791
00:32:33,409 --> 00:32:31,980
Revolution and so you had various people

792
00:32:35,629 --> 00:32:33,419
looking around for third option who are

793
00:32:37,149 --> 00:32:35,639
saying you know that sucks that sucks no

794
00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:37,159
thank you I want something else

795
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:41,340
one group of them found inspiration in

796
00:32:44,810 --> 00:32:42,450
what

797
00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:44,820
was known of the ancient roads they

798
00:32:49,690 --> 00:32:46,260
studied that and I said you know that's

799
00:32:53,300 --> 00:32:49,700
kind of what we want to be we want to

800
00:33:00,170 --> 00:32:53,310
find meaning and value to root our

801
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:00,180
spiritual paths in nature not in the

802
00:33:04,610 --> 00:33:02,370
pursuit of scientists of pursuit of

803
00:33:06,940 --> 00:33:04,620
power over the material universe through

804
00:33:09,740 --> 00:33:06,950
scientific technology not through

805
00:33:11,690 --> 00:33:09,750
bailing out of the world - you know in

806
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:11,700
other world on the far side of death as

807
00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:13,530
promised by the dogmatic religion about

808
00:33:17,780 --> 00:33:15,420
time don't worry about everything you're

809
00:33:20,150 --> 00:33:17,790
suffering in this life it'll all be well

810
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:20,160
when you're dead that kind of thing and

811
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:22,170
so they took their a lot of their

812
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:23,610
inspiration from what was known of

813
00:33:27,890 --> 00:33:25,110
ancient religions of adopting the name

814
00:33:29,810 --> 00:33:27,900
for themselves so from the 18th century

815
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:29,820
there were little groups like this but

816
00:33:34,250 --> 00:33:32,370
the Druids seem to have hit on something

817
00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:34,260
that were in generation a year after

818
00:33:38,710 --> 00:33:36,150
year generation after generation century

819
00:33:41,570 --> 00:33:38,720
after century we've been around

820
00:33:45,380 --> 00:33:41,580
developing this spiritual development

821
00:33:47,330 --> 00:33:45,390
our spirituality of nature and that's

822
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:47,340
gradually drawn on various things from

823
00:33:52,190 --> 00:33:49,530
various corners of the intellectual

824
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:52,200
cosmos one of the things that's drawn on

825
00:33:56,510 --> 00:33:54,000
mostly during the 20th century was it

826
00:33:59,600 --> 00:33:56,520
picked up a lot of material from the

827
00:34:01,550 --> 00:33:59,610
revival of magic and so you get a lot of

828
00:34:03,710 --> 00:34:01,560
people in the drug scene who are very

829
00:34:06,740 --> 00:34:03,720
poor to one extent or another very

830
00:34:09,230 --> 00:34:06,750
familiar with certain schools of magical

831
00:34:12,860 --> 00:34:09,240
practice who are teachers of magic

832
00:34:15,620 --> 00:34:12,870
design and so you know there's this

833
00:34:18,050 --> 00:34:15,630
nature centered spirituality there's the

834
00:34:19,820 --> 00:34:18,060
magical dimension of existence in those

835
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:19,830
two has created quite an interesting

836
00:34:25,670 --> 00:34:22,320
fusion and it's one that a lot of us

837
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:25,680
find more compelling more convincing and

838
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:29,370
frankly more interesting then either the

839
00:34:36,410 --> 00:34:32,910
sort of dogmatic pie in the sky when you

840
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:36,420
die variety of Orthodox religion or on

841
00:34:42,530 --> 00:34:39,210
the other hand the dogmatic scientific

842
00:34:46,670 --> 00:34:42,540
materialism wait oh man the Conqueror of

843
00:34:49,930 --> 00:34:46,680
nature and then you die and destroy yeah

844
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:49,940
I mean there is a certain amount of

845
00:34:54,950 --> 00:34:52,770
strangeness about it in terms of how our

846
00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:54,960
culture relates to it and I almost feel

847
00:34:58,460 --> 00:34:56,250
like to a certain extent

848
00:35:00,320 --> 00:34:58,470
you kind of embrace that you kind of go

849
00:35:03,770 --> 00:35:00,330
well like if you need to be shocked out

850
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:03,780
of thinking beyond the couple of boxes

851
00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:06,240
you normally see then fine I'll shock

852
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:08,400
you a little bit but then open your ears

853
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:10,970
and listen let's let's probe into this

854
00:35:14,930 --> 00:35:13,200
magic thing a little bit because it's

855
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:14,940
another word that you know really throws

856
00:35:21,890 --> 00:35:18,690
people ya know magic and occult in this

857
00:35:24,170 --> 00:35:21,900
and and the one thing that that I always

858
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:24,180
come back to is like hey man if you

859
00:35:31,550 --> 00:35:27,810
think magic is something foreign to what

860
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:31,560
you've experienced in your Christian

861
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:33,450
education or your Christian background

862
00:35:39,230 --> 00:35:37,050
forget it I mean magic is like so

863
00:35:42,349 --> 00:35:39,240
intertwined with the Bible the Bible is

864
00:35:45,770 --> 00:35:42,359
a book about magic all over the place

865
00:35:47,210 --> 00:35:45,780
some of it is ordained in the doctrine

866
00:35:48,859 --> 00:35:47,220
of the church some of it isn't but

867
00:35:52,010 --> 00:35:48,869
there's plenty of it there I mean if it

868
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:52,020
happens just know that there has been

869
00:35:56,839 --> 00:35:55,290
this tendency on the part of the be sort

870
00:35:58,910 --> 00:35:56,849
of sort of religious mainstream in the

871
00:36:01,010 --> 00:35:58,920
West to insist that magic has immunity

872
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:01,020
there's no common ground between magic

873
00:36:06,290 --> 00:36:02,880
and Christianity oh so that's kind of

874
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:06,300
quite simply wrong most of the just on a

875
00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:09,300
purely headcount basis most of the

876
00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:11,790
serious magicians in the Western world

877
00:36:17,210 --> 00:36:14,250
for the last thousand years had been

878
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:17,220
devout Christians many of the systems of

879
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:18,930
magical practice that are out there are

880
00:36:23,930 --> 00:36:21,210
thoroughly Christian they are based on

881
00:36:25,940 --> 00:36:23,940
the basic tenets of Christian belief now

882
00:36:27,710 --> 00:36:25,950
many I mean there there are many schools

883
00:36:29,660 --> 00:36:27,720
out there where you have to be baptized

884
00:36:33,650 --> 00:36:29,670
believing Trinitarian Christians to get

885
00:36:37,460 --> 00:36:33,660
in the door but because it's a

886
00:36:40,849 --> 00:36:37,470
complicated thing why why in in our

887
00:36:44,030 --> 00:36:40,859
culture the mainstream religion should

888
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:44,040
turn its back on so useful and so

889
00:36:47,359 --> 00:36:45,690
created the dimension of life well in

890
00:36:49,810 --> 00:36:47,369
most other cultures that's not the case

891
00:36:52,970 --> 00:36:49,820
I mean if you go to Japan for example

892
00:36:55,700 --> 00:36:52,980
medical practice is is very heavily very

893
00:36:57,410 --> 00:36:55,710
very heavily part of many of there's a

894
00:37:00,290 --> 00:36:57,420
certain a number of the important sects

895
00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:00,300
of Buddhism mm-hmm and Shinto the the

896
00:37:03,950 --> 00:37:02,190
traditional folk religion of Japan is

897
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:03,960
riddled with magic and divination and

898
00:37:08,089 --> 00:37:06,450
nobody worries about it it's so let's

899
00:37:09,740 --> 00:37:08,099
break it down and make sure we're not

900
00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:09,750
talking in abstract terms

901
00:37:13,940 --> 00:37:11,400
so we go back to the Bible we talk about

902
00:37:17,930 --> 00:37:13,950
magic and you can think about it in the

903
00:37:20,210 --> 00:37:17,940
kind of old-fashioned 60s TV show can I

904
00:37:23,359 --> 00:37:20,220
think there are spells there are laying

905
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:23,369
of hands there are annoying with magical

906
00:37:27,020 --> 00:37:25,530
oils there's all these kind of things

907
00:37:28,130 --> 00:37:27,030
and in other traditions Indian

908
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:28,140
traditions I don't know about the

909
00:37:32,270 --> 00:37:30,240
Japanese tradition the tree agent but

910
00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:32,280
it's kind of the same it's been wrapped

911
00:37:36,530 --> 00:37:34,680
up and well think of it this way who

912
00:37:37,609 --> 00:37:36,540
were the three guys who came to show who

913
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:37,619
showed up

914
00:37:42,890 --> 00:37:40,650
exactly Bethlehem when Christ was born

915
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:42,900
according to the Gospels Three Magi

916
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:46,410
three magicians who would I swear by

917
00:37:52,580 --> 00:37:50,010
their study of astrology yeah and with

918
00:37:54,349 --> 00:37:52,590
gold frankincense and myrrh yeah he was

919
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:54,359
used to joke gold Frankenstein and

920
00:37:57,830 --> 00:37:55,920
wonder what you know the Christ child

921
00:38:00,050 --> 00:37:57,840
would do with a large green monster I'm

922
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:00,060
sure you come up with something but yeah

923
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:03,050
you know so you have these three wizards

924
00:38:07,580 --> 00:38:05,490
right coming out of the east to a do it

925
00:38:09,220 --> 00:38:07,590
had figured out what was going on on the

926
00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:09,230
basis of their study of the heavens

927
00:38:15,740 --> 00:38:13,020
astrology mmm and who show up and you

928
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:15,750
know correctly identify what's going on

929
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:18,690
and duck out fast so that Herod doesn't

930
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:23,330
figure out where they've been and okay

931
00:38:27,980 --> 00:38:26,250
wrong you know there's also an

932
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:27,990
interesting parallel that I've never

933
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:29,970
really spoke with anyone about but I'd

934
00:38:34,609 --> 00:38:31,650
be interested in your thoughts of it is

935
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:34,619
you know there's a certain kind of shut

936
00:38:39,650 --> 00:38:37,920
up and calculate aspect to magic and by

937
00:38:42,109 --> 00:38:39,660
that I mean you know when you get into

938
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,119
physics and you study quantum physics

939
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:44,400
and they've reached this kind of point

940
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:47,490
early on in the early 1900s when they

941
00:38:51,380 --> 00:38:48,930
say what is this this doesn't make any

942
00:38:52,700 --> 00:38:51,390
sense and how can this be and then there

943
00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:52,710
was this school of thought that said

944
00:38:56,359 --> 00:38:54,480
look shut up and calculate

945
00:38:59,089 --> 00:38:56,369
let's just do the calculations see how

946
00:39:00,740 --> 00:38:59,099
we can practically apply these wonnum

947
00:39:03,470 --> 00:39:00,750
effects in these quantum theories that

948
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:03,480
seemed to be playing out and a lot came

949
00:39:08,109 --> 00:39:06,089
out of that global satellites we have

950
00:39:10,099 --> 00:39:08,119
all sorts of technology that we couldn't

951
00:39:13,310 --> 00:39:10,109
quote-unquote we couldn't live without

952
00:39:15,740 --> 00:39:13,320
if we hadn't pursued that path but they

953
00:39:19,250 --> 00:39:15,750
never really grappled with the really

954
00:39:23,450 --> 00:39:19,260
hard to understand philosophical

955
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:23,460
implications of so

956
00:39:28,850 --> 00:39:26,160
I just think that in the same way the

957
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:28,860
magical community has done kind of the

958
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:30,570
same thing saying well let's not worry

959
00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:34,530
about wha what is the true order of the

960
00:39:39,230 --> 00:39:36,960
universe or the higher spiritual order

961
00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:39,240
this let's just try this this seems to

962
00:39:43,730 --> 00:39:41,310
work this seems to be efficacious over

963
00:39:45,590 --> 00:39:43,740
this period of time shut up and

964
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:45,600
calculate shut up enter the spell you

965
00:39:50,930 --> 00:39:48,810
know yeah well you you get that you

966
00:39:52,970 --> 00:39:50,940
unquestionably get that especially the

967
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:52,980
sort of popular magic that pervades

968
00:39:57,020 --> 00:39:54,960
every society including ours is very

969
00:39:59,390 --> 00:39:57,030
much you know shut up cast a spell type

970
00:40:01,070 --> 00:39:59,400
stuff fortunately there's always been a

971
00:40:04,250 --> 00:40:01,080
certain there's only been some interest

972
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:04,260
in in the magical community in in the

973
00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:05,850
dimensions of magical theory in what

974
00:40:09,620 --> 00:40:07,710
what does this imply about the universe

975
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:09,630
you actually surprised me what I thought

976
00:40:13,580 --> 00:40:12,090
you were saying is that mainstream

977
00:40:15,140 --> 00:40:13,590
religion is actually practicing magic

978
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:15,150
but they're doing it on a shutup and

979
00:40:22,430 --> 00:40:18,530
calculate basis totally don't ask why

980
00:40:25,220 --> 00:40:22,440
these things work just shut up and do

981
00:40:26,570 --> 00:40:25,230
the ceremony yeah and they're even worse

982
00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:26,580
they're even worse than that they're

983
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,420
just going to not even be open to all

984
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:32,880
but just a small sliver of it and it

985
00:40:36,590 --> 00:40:34,800
guest is still down more and more you

986
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:36,600
know and I think if there's a point to

987
00:40:38,660 --> 00:40:36,810
that

988
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:38,670
there's a point to the shut up and

989
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:40,650
calculate again you you you you can

990
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:43,290
accomplish certain practical things but

991
00:40:47,870 --> 00:40:44,970
it becomes a problem when it's taken too

992
00:40:50,150 --> 00:40:47,880
far when you and when you start slapping

993
00:40:51,740 --> 00:40:50,160
really rigid limits on what people are

994
00:40:54,020 --> 00:40:51,750
allowed to think what questions people

995
00:40:55,340 --> 00:40:54,030
are allowed to ask it's one of the one

996
00:40:57,050 --> 00:40:55,350
of the deciding problems with spiritual

997
00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:57,060
hierarchies is they tend to slap such

998
00:41:02,030 --> 00:41:00,720
questions down hard fortunately at this

999
00:41:04,070 --> 00:41:02,040
point in the druid community in the

1000
00:41:05,690 --> 00:41:04,080
broader magical community but we don't

1001
00:41:07,220 --> 00:41:05,700
have much in the way of effective

1002
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:07,230
hierarchy and so people can ask the

1003
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:10,290
questions they want here's another quote

1004
00:41:16,460 --> 00:41:13,290
from you rationalism suffers from the

1005
00:41:17,900 --> 00:41:16,470
innate and lethal tendency to lose track

1006
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:17,910
of the difference between the

1007
00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:20,130
abstractions that it contemplates and

1008
00:41:24,980 --> 00:41:22,590
the universe those abstractions are

1009
00:41:27,830 --> 00:41:24,990
meant to represent I think there's some

1010
00:41:30,590 --> 00:41:27,840
of that going on too oh yeah oh yeah

1011
00:41:33,110 --> 00:41:30,600
yeah you want to expound on that yeah

1012
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:33,120
and we can see that in magic words we

1013
00:41:37,309 --> 00:41:35,370
especially in religion I mean the entire

1014
00:41:40,329 --> 00:41:37,319
argument of ACS

1015
00:41:43,099 --> 00:41:40,339
are based on a simple logical fallacy

1016
00:41:44,989 --> 00:41:43,109
statements XY and Z about gods are

1017
00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:44,999
absurd therefore gods are absurd

1018
00:41:52,189 --> 00:41:48,569
okay and that's it's a simple fallacy of

1019
00:41:53,660 --> 00:41:52,199
composition anybody in anybody with the

1020
00:41:55,819 --> 00:41:53,670
basic logical training should be able to

1021
00:41:57,859 --> 00:41:55,829
see through the fact they can't does not

1022
00:41:59,269 --> 00:41:57,869
speak well for them but well of course

1023
00:42:00,739 --> 00:41:59,279
we get the same thing to mean in a

1024
00:42:02,660 --> 00:42:00,749
religious setting you that people say

1025
00:42:04,309 --> 00:42:02,670
well the important thing are the dogmas

1026
00:42:06,109 --> 00:42:04,319
what are the documents the dogmas are

1027
00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:06,119
the mental models these statements we

1028
00:42:12,769 --> 00:42:09,569
have the abstractions into which we we

1029
00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:12,779
fit the raw data of religious experience

1030
00:42:17,150 --> 00:42:14,609
and if religious experience doesn't

1031
00:42:19,309 --> 00:42:17,160
follow those abstractions or you know

1032
00:42:23,150 --> 00:42:19,319
the outcome the outcome the torch's or

1033
00:42:25,819 --> 00:42:23,160
worse it's it's a common tendency we

1034
00:42:27,859 --> 00:42:25,829
want to have a nice neat model but one

1035
00:42:29,839 --> 00:42:27,869
of the things we know one things we know

1036
00:42:32,269 --> 00:42:29,849
absolutely about the whole spiritual

1037
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:32,279
realm is that it is not equal to our

1038
00:42:37,579 --> 00:42:34,170
models it is not nice and neat

1039
00:42:38,989 --> 00:42:37,589
it does what it wants to and if our

1040
00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:38,999
models don't fit that too bad for the

1041
00:42:47,769 --> 00:42:42,089
models but then what does that say about

1042
00:42:50,269 --> 00:42:47,779
our attempts to try and change these

1043
00:42:51,769 --> 00:42:50,279
models that we live within in this

1044
00:42:55,969 --> 00:42:51,779
material world I mean I think a lot of

1045
00:42:59,180 --> 00:42:55,979
your work is about the the decline of

1046
00:43:01,489 --> 00:42:59,190
the industrial society that we've come

1047
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:01,499
to accept and kind of put up on this

1048
00:43:07,180 --> 00:43:03,839
pedestal and you make some great points

1049
00:43:11,029 --> 00:43:07,190
but this isn't a spiritual perspective

1050
00:43:14,479 --> 00:43:11,039
kind of demand that we not play that

1051
00:43:16,009 --> 00:43:14,489
game rather than that we become so sure

1052
00:43:17,539 --> 00:43:16,019
that that game is headed in this

1053
00:43:20,689 --> 00:43:17,549
direction or that direction don't we

1054
00:43:24,499 --> 00:43:20,699
know from our spiritual insight that

1055
00:43:27,890 --> 00:43:24,509
it's not about trying to fix that game

1056
00:43:31,249 --> 00:43:27,900
it's about trying to rise above it on a

1057
00:43:33,620 --> 00:43:31,259
personal level mm-hmm but there's

1058
00:43:34,969 --> 00:43:33,630
there's two games going on here there's

1059
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:34,979
two games going on here there's a

1060
00:43:39,140 --> 00:43:37,170
spiritual game but we're not just

1061
00:43:41,439 --> 00:43:39,150
spiritual beings will not disembodied

1062
00:43:45,829 --> 00:43:41,449
bubbles of consciousness we are also

1063
00:43:49,219 --> 00:43:45,839
embodied material animal beings who have

1064
00:43:51,010 --> 00:43:49,229
to get enough to eat or we suffer who

1065
00:43:54,250 --> 00:43:51,020
have various needs who are try

1066
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:54,260
to make things work one way or another

1067
00:43:59,020 --> 00:43:57,040
however stupidly on the Material Plane

1068
00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:59,030
some of them are some of the Renaissance

1069
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:00,800
magical writers used to put this in a

1070
00:44:05,290 --> 00:44:02,210
very charming way they talked about

1071
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:05,300
human beings is being amphibians you

1072
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:06,290
know you think of your you're an

1073
00:44:10,570 --> 00:44:08,810
amphibian animals like newts and frogs

1074
00:44:13,810 --> 00:44:10,580
and so on they live in the water they

1075
00:44:15,550 --> 00:44:13,820
live on land okay human beings we're

1076
00:44:17,170 --> 00:44:15,560
amphibians we live in matter we live in

1077
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:17,180
spirit we live in both at the same time

1078
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:22,250
and we can't just do one without losing

1079
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:24,530
stuff that's essential to be to be human

1080
00:44:30,670 --> 00:44:26,210
without losing a part of the core of who

1081
00:44:33,250 --> 00:44:30,680
we are and so on the one hand yeah each

1082
00:44:36,150 --> 00:44:33,260
of us needs an individual level to take

1083
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:36,160
such steps as we may in any given life

1084
00:44:41,710 --> 00:44:39,440
to write to rise a notch above our

1085
00:44:43,660 --> 00:44:41,720
models to look at them from above to get

1086
00:44:46,420 --> 00:44:43,670
that spiritual perspective on things and

1087
00:44:48,730 --> 00:44:46,430
to move closer toward to move further

1088
00:44:50,590 --> 00:44:48,740
into a broader and higher more complete

1089
00:44:53,770 --> 00:44:50,600
perspective but we also have to put food

1090
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:53,780
on the table we also have to put and not

1091
00:44:58,810 --> 00:44:55,370
just put food on our own tables we also

1092
00:45:00,280 --> 00:44:58,820
have to die to do what we can to guide

1093
00:45:03,220 --> 00:45:00,290
our communities our families or

1094
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:03,230
societies into more productive ways of

1095
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:04,850
living in the world and so you've got

1096
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:06,650
those you have those two patterns going

1097
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:09,920
on at the same time on the one hand the

1098
00:45:12,850 --> 00:45:11,330
movement in the spiritual direction on

1099
00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:12,860
the other hand we have gotten ourselves

1100
00:45:18,250 --> 00:45:16,160
in physical terms in a world of hurt and

1101
00:45:21,070 --> 00:45:18,260
that's not going to go away just because

1102
00:45:22,450 --> 00:45:21,080
we all get a little wiser we've done

1103
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:22,460
things to the world that are going to

1104
00:45:26,250 --> 00:45:24,650
last for a very long time and we have to

1105
00:45:28,900 --> 00:45:26,260
live with the consequences of that and

1106
00:45:30,430 --> 00:45:28,910
we're also we've also got a situation

1107
00:45:33,940 --> 00:45:30,440
where most of the people in the world

1108
00:45:35,410 --> 00:45:33,950
are busy pursuing a model of existence a

1109
00:45:37,420 --> 00:45:35,420
model of you know happiness on earth

1110
00:45:41,740 --> 00:45:37,430
which is going to lead to unparalleled

1111
00:45:43,660 --> 00:45:41,750
destruction and that's also something in

1112
00:45:45,730 --> 00:45:43,670
half that that's common I mean no

1113
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:45,740
civilization ever has to be dragged to

1114
00:45:51,310 --> 00:45:47,930
its destruction we all take it at a run

1115
00:45:52,510 --> 00:45:51,320
yelling in triumph convinced that the

1116
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:52,520
road to destruction is actually

1117
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:54,050
believers to utopia on earth that's

1118
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:56,210
always what happens and we're in the

1119
00:46:00,580 --> 00:45:58,400
middle of it right now you know maybe

1120
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:00,590
maybe we're in the middle of it maybe

1121
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:02,570
we're at the end of it maybe we're at

1122
00:46:08,430 --> 00:46:04,210
the beginning of it

1123
00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:08,440
but I think most of us feel that when we

1124
00:46:14,490 --> 00:46:10,720
get into these kind of apocalyptic

1125
00:46:16,620 --> 00:46:14,500
visions of either economic collapse or

1126
00:46:20,670 --> 00:46:16,630
environmental collapse that there's

1127
00:46:23,730 --> 00:46:20,680
there's just a disconnect with me how I

1128
00:46:26,790 --> 00:46:23,740
live my life my carbon footprint I mean

1129
00:46:29,099 --> 00:46:26,800
who can really relate to that in any

1130
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:29,109
real sense when there's this there's

1131
00:46:35,370 --> 00:46:31,839
such a a mismatch a disconnect half the

1132
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:35,380
world's population is living on $2 a day

1133
00:46:42,329 --> 00:46:39,280
I live in such obscene abundance

1134
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:42,339
compared to that that I can never make

1135
00:46:47,849 --> 00:46:44,970
those two balance and I can go move I

1136
00:46:50,220 --> 00:46:47,859
port the idea that at least you back up

1137
00:46:52,530 --> 00:46:50,230
your talk I mean you live on this low

1138
00:46:53,910 --> 00:46:52,540
footprint life on the edge of the

1139
00:46:56,370 --> 00:46:53,920
Appalachian Mountains

1140
00:46:58,380 --> 00:46:56,380
I don't I don't even try and pretend I

1141
00:47:01,620 --> 00:46:58,390
don't even recycle because it's stupid

1142
00:47:03,870 --> 00:47:01,630
to recycle we where I live the tiny

1143
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:03,880
little community where I live they drive

1144
00:47:07,859 --> 00:47:05,770
around these months cross tourists

1145
00:47:10,380 --> 00:47:07,869
trucks among these houses that are

1146
00:47:12,810 --> 00:47:10,390
spread apart to collect you know three

1147
00:47:15,420 --> 00:47:12,820
or four plastic bottles from this person

1148
00:47:18,870 --> 00:47:15,430
or about that person it makes absolutely

1149
00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:18,880
no economic sense no environmental sense

1150
00:47:24,780 --> 00:47:21,910
and yet I'm supposed to feel good about

1151
00:47:27,690 --> 00:47:24,790
recycling and I take that that small

1152
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:27,700
example and I extrapolate up to the

1153
00:47:31,620 --> 00:47:29,650
larger and I say it's the same thing

1154
00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:31,630
it's like these environmentalists want

1155
00:47:35,130 --> 00:47:33,760
to run around and talk about carbon

1156
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:35,140
footprint and then as soon as you bring

1157
00:47:38,430 --> 00:47:37,119
up China or India they're like well we

1158
00:47:40,410 --> 00:47:38,440
don't really want to talk about China or

1159
00:47:42,870 --> 00:47:40,420
India let me tell you about Sweden and

1160
00:47:45,390 --> 00:47:42,880
about how they've reduced their carbon

1161
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:45,400
it's like come let's get real let's

1162
00:47:53,849 --> 00:47:50,170
somehow try and connect that impulse to

1163
00:47:56,099 --> 00:47:53,859
do well with policy with actual

1164
00:47:58,530 --> 00:47:56,109
political action that could make a

1165
00:48:01,740 --> 00:47:58,540
difference and the connection just isn't

1166
00:48:04,410 --> 00:48:01,750
there for a lot of a lot of reasons that

1167
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:04,420
wind up being start looking like old

1168
00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:07,330
fashioned politics and power and war and

1169
00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:10,030
struggle and stuff that we are so far

1170
00:48:14,510 --> 00:48:12,310
away from having any influence of that

1171
00:48:17,370 --> 00:48:14,520
it did I don't think it really matters

1172
00:48:19,049 --> 00:48:17,380
okay let's pick that apart

1173
00:48:21,900 --> 00:48:19,059
because there are several things going

1174
00:48:25,620 --> 00:48:21,910
on here I'm going to go back to Al Gore

1175
00:48:27,059 --> 00:48:25,630
as an example because Al Gore hey you

1176
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:27,069
know we talked about how he profits off

1177
00:48:30,450 --> 00:48:28,930
the whole climate thing he has also done

1178
00:48:33,029 --> 00:48:30,460
a huge amount to destroy climate change

1179
00:48:35,519 --> 00:48:33,039
activism why because of his frequent

1180
00:48:39,930 --> 00:48:35,529
flyer miles and his huge air-conditioned

1181
00:48:41,670 --> 00:48:39,940
mansion you cannot get chant make you

1182
00:48:43,589 --> 00:48:41,680
cannot encourage other people to change

1183
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:43,599
unless you're willing to walk your talk

1184
00:48:48,420 --> 00:48:46,720
if you want other people to change you

1185
00:48:50,009 --> 00:48:48,430
need to model the change for them you

1186
00:48:53,549 --> 00:48:50,019
need to show them that it's possible to

1187
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:53,559
live a much less extravagant lifestyle

1188
00:48:58,049 --> 00:48:55,690
and still be comfortable and still be

1189
00:48:59,729 --> 00:48:58,059
happy until people are willing to do

1190
00:49:00,319 --> 00:48:59,739
that you're not going to have any change

1191
00:49:02,910 --> 00:49:00,329
at all

1192
00:49:04,769 --> 00:49:02,920
when we talk about making sweeping

1193
00:49:05,999 --> 00:49:04,779
changes on the political scale okay

1194
00:49:08,069 --> 00:49:06,009
that's gay you know

1195
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:08,079
that's an issue but the first thing that

1196
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:09,729
has to happen is that somebody needs to

1197
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:10,930
be willing to make those changes in

1198
00:49:16,289 --> 00:49:12,729
their own life because you know as well

1199
00:49:17,969 --> 00:49:16,299
as I do that if everyone's going around

1200
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:17,979
saying I want everyone else to cut the

1201
00:49:22,309 --> 00:49:20,319
carbon footprint while I you know climb

1202
00:49:24,839 --> 00:49:22,319
on the jet plane dimeric speaking gig

1203
00:49:27,989 --> 00:49:24,849
people are sensitive to apocrypha they

1204
00:49:31,049 --> 00:49:27,999
know what that amounts to and so on a

1205
00:49:33,209 --> 00:49:31,059
strategic level on a level of strategy

1206
00:49:35,219 --> 00:49:33,219
of influencing people somebody's got a

1207
00:49:36,870 --> 00:49:35,229
model it somebody's gotta show that it's

1208
00:49:39,479 --> 00:49:36,880
possible somebody's gotta show that a

1209
00:49:42,779 --> 00:49:39,489
lifestyle can be low in carbon and high

1210
00:49:44,609 --> 00:49:42,789
in joy and in fact that that's something

1211
00:49:47,190 --> 00:49:44,619
that is happening now as people begin to

1212
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:47,200
see as it begins to sink in that the

1213
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:49,450
sort of middle-class activist notion

1214
00:49:53,450 --> 00:49:50,650
that we can fit in our comfortable

1215
00:49:56,069 --> 00:49:53,460
suburban homes and the activists and

1216
00:49:58,769 --> 00:49:56,079
profit from the suffering of millions of

1217
00:50:01,650 --> 00:49:58,779
other people but that doesn't cut it did

1218
00:50:03,299 --> 00:50:01,660
we actually have to change our own lives

1219
00:50:06,089 --> 00:50:03,309
if we're going to change anything else

1220
00:50:08,390 --> 00:50:06,099
so we have that on the one hand okay

1221
00:50:10,769 --> 00:50:08,400
recycling you've chosen a specific

1222
00:50:11,849 --> 00:50:10,779
example and it's an example but in many

1223
00:50:14,999 --> 00:50:11,859
places you right it doesn't make sense

1224
00:50:16,950 --> 00:50:15,009
where I live I live in a city of 20,000

1225
00:50:20,009 --> 00:50:16,960
people okay it's an old red brick mill

1226
00:50:21,150 --> 00:50:20,019
sound the houses are you know they're

1227
00:50:23,009 --> 00:50:21,160
not cheap by jail but they're really

1228
00:50:24,989 --> 00:50:23,019
close and so it actually does make a lot

1229
00:50:26,519 --> 00:50:24,999
of sense to recycle here we do have we

1230
00:50:30,059 --> 00:50:26,529
now just recently have a recycling

1231
00:50:31,170 --> 00:50:30,069
program and you know the garbage trucks

1232
00:50:33,930 --> 00:50:31,180
are coming around

1233
00:50:36,089 --> 00:50:33,940
anyway to pick up the trash and so no

1234
00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:36,099
people have their recycle bins out it

1235
00:50:40,079 --> 00:50:38,559
saves the city at jumpa money because

1236
00:50:41,819 --> 00:50:40,089
they don't have to do to pay for the

1237
00:50:43,530 --> 00:50:41,829
disposable diverse recycled products

1238
00:50:46,589 --> 00:50:43,540
it's a win-win situation for everybody

1239
00:50:48,690 --> 00:50:46,599
if you live in a tiny town with you know

1240
00:50:51,420 --> 00:50:48,700
vastly or or this one of these ghastly

1241
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:51,430
suburbs that Demetri Orloff describes is

1242
00:50:55,290 --> 00:50:53,170
looking like about a cemetery you know

1243
00:50:57,390 --> 00:50:55,300
you have the neatly mowed lawns with the

1244
00:50:59,069 --> 00:50:57,400
houses rising like tombstones and nobody

1245
00:51:00,680 --> 00:50:59,079
you should you know should you should

1246
00:51:03,270 --> 00:51:00,690
disturb those who sleep there and

1247
00:51:06,870 --> 00:51:03,280
probably recycling it's not going to be

1248
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:06,880
economic analyst you can do like not

1249
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:08,530
live in a place like that actually

1250
00:51:14,190 --> 00:51:10,720
that's increasingly that's common a lot

1251
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:14,200
of the big outer suburbs are dying on

1252
00:51:17,940 --> 00:51:16,450
the vine they never made any sense as

1253
00:51:20,490 --> 00:51:17,950
anything but real estate speculation

1254
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:20,500
anyway so but so you've got a range of

1255
00:51:24,930 --> 00:51:22,690
things that you can do recycling is not

1256
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:24,940
the only thing you can do and remember

1257
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:26,530
if there are always people out there

1258
00:51:34,260 --> 00:51:30,970
living on less than $2 a day um you know

1259
00:51:36,359 --> 00:51:34,270
and you decrease your your carbon

1260
00:51:38,549 --> 00:51:36,369
footprint you decrease your expenditures

1261
00:51:40,230 --> 00:51:38,559
your extravagance on a fairly modest

1262
00:51:43,530 --> 00:51:40,240
amount you're opening up a lot of space

1263
00:51:47,370 --> 00:51:43,540
for this for a lot of poor people so you

1264
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:47,380
know as a rich as a member of the global

1265
00:51:52,620 --> 00:51:50,410
1% as a member as you know it's not

1266
00:51:54,390 --> 00:51:52,630
quite and I'm not quite in the 1% but no

1267
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:54,400
do you mean globally if you make more

1268
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:55,690
than about thirty thousand a year you're

1269
00:51:59,400 --> 00:51:57,010
in the long term yeah yeah yeah correct

1270
00:52:02,490 --> 00:51:59,410
there you go globally you're in a 1% and

1271
00:52:05,010 --> 00:52:02,500
so you have a much bigger impact on the

1272
00:52:06,780 --> 00:52:05,020
planet than anybody else make use of n

1273
00:52:09,839 --> 00:52:06,790
do something constructive with it that's

1274
00:52:11,579 --> 00:52:09,849
how I'd like to rephrase that but I want

1275
00:52:13,410 --> 00:52:11,589
to go on before before we bounce to and

1276
00:52:16,410 --> 00:52:13,420
to another topics very briefly because

1277
00:52:19,970 --> 00:52:16,420
what lies behind all the reasons not to

1278
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:19,980
do anything in most cases is fear fear

1279
00:52:24,780 --> 00:52:23,290
of change fear of letting go of these

1280
00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:24,790
various you know some middle-class

1281
00:52:31,620 --> 00:52:27,730
trophies because then we realize how

1282
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:31,630
empty they actually are we fill our

1283
00:52:36,210 --> 00:52:33,970
lives with crap because I want to

1284
00:52:37,829 --> 00:52:36,220
actually suck we've bought into this

1285
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:37,839
idea this is what you should have you

1286
00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:39,490
should have that big sprawling house you

1287
00:52:45,050 --> 00:52:41,920
should have a big loud car a plasma

1288
00:52:47,450 --> 00:52:45,060
screen TV blahdy blahdy blahdy blah

1289
00:52:49,220 --> 00:52:47,460
sit there feeling empty and discontented

1290
00:52:51,350 --> 00:52:49,230
and bored because none of that actually

1291
00:52:54,350 --> 00:52:51,360
means anything none of it is that rather

1292
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:54,360
worthwhile right now so we need to stop

1293
00:52:57,470 --> 00:52:55,770
and say okay how about if I get rid of

1294
00:53:01,280 --> 00:52:57,480
some of these things I do something else

1295
00:53:03,740 --> 00:53:01,290
with my life well that's the leap that

1296
00:53:06,140 --> 00:53:03,750
that's the leap so I'm with you right up

1297
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:06,150
to that point and I think that speaks to

1298
00:53:13,430 --> 00:53:09,810
the deeply spiritual aspect of this that

1299
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:13,440
that can be the gift right so all this

1300
00:53:22,220 --> 00:53:17,970
excess in this industrial nonsense this

1301
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:22,230
this sociological kind of schizophrenic

1302
00:53:27,110 --> 00:53:24,570
you know don't worry about the war in

1303
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:27,120
Afghanistan just go out and shop kind of

1304
00:53:31,130 --> 00:53:29,250
stuff and people are like okay what but

1305
00:53:33,530 --> 00:53:31,140
what's really going on here but when you

1306
00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:33,540
get past that and you it generates that

1307
00:53:37,490 --> 00:53:35,310
impulse to do something like you're

1308
00:53:40,310 --> 00:53:37,500
talking about there's another place you

1309
00:53:42,830 --> 00:53:40,320
can get to and that is okay what should

1310
00:53:46,310 --> 00:53:42,840
I do with that impulse should I reach

1311
00:53:48,410 --> 00:53:46,320
out to the person I'm walking across the

1312
00:53:51,290 --> 00:53:48,420
street from who I don't normally smile -

1313
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:51,300
and I do smile at that's what I think we

1314
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:53,730
should do I think the activism needs to

1315
00:53:59,810 --> 00:53:57,090
be at that scale and we don't need to

1316
00:54:03,470 --> 00:53:59,820
kind of delude ourselves into thinking

1317
00:54:06,530 --> 00:54:03,480
that we're going to change this machine

1318
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:06,540
let me just interject this little story

1319
00:54:11,450 --> 00:54:08,370
because I'd love to get your thought on

1320
00:54:12,620 --> 00:54:11,460
this you know get back in November 2010

1321
00:54:14,660 --> 00:54:12,630
I live right on the coast of California

1322
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:14,670
I look right out at the Pacific Ocean

1323
00:54:19,910 --> 00:54:17,490
it's a fabulous view 25 and I goes like

1324
00:54:22,490 --> 00:54:19,920
50 miles outside this is national news

1325
00:54:25,790 --> 00:54:22,500
international news there was this cork

1326
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:25,800
shaped contrail that seemed to be rising

1327
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:28,530
from the ocean that everyone who's

1328
00:54:33,650 --> 00:54:31,170
anyone in Defense said hey that's a

1329
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:33,660
missile probably fired from a submarine

1330
00:54:41,090 --> 00:54:38,610
on that very same day a nearby Carnival

1331
00:54:44,210 --> 00:54:41,100
cruise ship a new one with all these

1332
00:54:46,610 --> 00:54:44,220
built-in redundancies super power thing

1333
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:46,620
completely loses power is dead in the

1334
00:54:52,670 --> 00:54:49,770
water unheard of unfathomable that this

1335
00:54:54,290 --> 00:54:52,680
could happen except that if you really

1336
00:54:56,510 --> 00:54:54,300
listen to the people who know what they

1337
00:54:58,760 --> 00:54:56,520
success what they suspect happened is

1338
00:55:02,080 --> 00:54:58,770
that the Chinese were

1339
00:55:05,630 --> 00:55:02,090
sampling testing out saber-rattling an

1340
00:55:08,210 --> 00:55:05,640
EMP weapon to show the United States

1341
00:55:10,940 --> 00:55:08,220
what we can do and those suspicions have

1342
00:55:13,820 --> 00:55:10,950
followed up in just this last year when

1343
00:55:16,580 --> 00:55:13,830
the Chinese were very open and upfront

1344
00:55:20,420 --> 00:55:16,590
with the fact that they had used an EMP

1345
00:55:23,660 --> 00:55:20,430
weapon to to disable a Japanese spy

1346
00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:23,670
satellite so there is like the tiniest

1347
00:55:29,150 --> 00:55:25,920
fraction of the American public who are

1348
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:29,160
aware of any of this stuff but if they

1349
00:55:36,020 --> 00:55:32,160
were you'd have to conclude that the

1350
00:55:38,090 --> 00:55:36,030
game is so much bigger so much deeper so

1351
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:38,100
much more complicated than we can ever

1352
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:41,010
imagine then than to think that you know

1353
00:55:44,690 --> 00:55:42,810
any of this stuff that we're talking

1354
00:55:47,420 --> 00:55:44,700
about could really make a difference

1355
00:55:49,220 --> 00:55:47,430
with these people who are pulling the

1356
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:49,230
puppet strings and controlling our

1357
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:51,690
culture forget about it be nice to your

1358
00:55:56,450 --> 00:55:53,210
neighbors

1359
00:55:58,340 --> 00:55:56,460
create a nice potluck this Sunday get

1360
00:56:01,640 --> 00:55:58,350
together help people out

1361
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:01,650
be good live a good life and don't worry

1362
00:56:06,770 --> 00:56:03,510
about it you know it's the Christian

1363
00:56:09,740 --> 00:56:06,780
youth it the Christian give unto Caesar

1364
00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:09,750
what is Caesar's was probably a meme

1365
00:56:14,090 --> 00:56:11,730
that was introduced by the Romans to

1366
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:14,100
control the masses but there's a deeper

1367
00:56:22,540 --> 00:56:16,530
spiritual truth to it I think which is

1368
00:56:28,610 --> 00:56:25,430
prefer the old piece of advice that was

1369
00:56:31,460 --> 00:56:28,620
given to Mariners back in the days of

1370
00:56:33,850 --> 00:56:31,470
sail when you went up in the rigging one

1371
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:33,860
hand for yourself one hand for the ship

1372
00:56:38,090 --> 00:56:36,210
okay you had one hand that you could

1373
00:56:39,410 --> 00:56:38,100
cling like grim death to the rigging so

1374
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:39,420
you didn't get tossed overboard and

1375
00:56:43,220 --> 00:56:42,090
drowned you had one hand it was hauling

1376
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:43,230
on a rope or doing what else we were

1377
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:45,450
supposed to do I think each of us can

1378
00:56:50,300 --> 00:56:48,480
face both ways we can look at what's

1379
00:56:52,010 --> 00:56:50,310
going on in our own lives we can look at

1380
00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:52,020
we can change our own lives we can

1381
00:56:56,300 --> 00:56:54,480
change what we do we can change how we

1382
00:56:59,570 --> 00:56:56,310
relate to our communities things like

1383
00:57:02,930 --> 00:56:59,580
that but it is important not to get too

1384
00:57:05,630 --> 00:57:02,940
caught up in this myth of elite

1385
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:05,640
omnipotence because I would suggest that

1386
00:57:09,710 --> 00:57:07,890
that's also something that people in the

1387
00:57:11,940 --> 00:57:09,720
political classes are very concerned to

1388
00:57:14,430 --> 00:57:11,950
distribute the idea that they are

1389
00:57:16,020 --> 00:57:14,440
be omnipotent controllers of the planet

1390
00:57:18,210 --> 00:57:16,030
because if everyone believes that

1391
00:57:20,609 --> 00:57:18,220
nobody's going to hassle them in fact

1392
00:57:22,770 --> 00:57:20,619
what we've got are a bunch of largely

1393
00:57:25,290 --> 00:57:22,780
clueless people who grew up very rich

1394
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:25,300
who have no contact with the real world

1395
00:57:29,910 --> 00:57:27,130
I mean have you ever spent time with

1396
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:29,920
people or who are really really really

1397
00:57:34,859 --> 00:57:32,770
well off or raised that way I've had the

1398
00:57:36,690 --> 00:57:34,869
occasion to do that on some occasions

1399
00:57:38,370 --> 00:57:36,700
and they are the most dysfunctional

1400
00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:38,380
people who ever met they literally don't

1401
00:57:41,609 --> 00:57:39,520
know how to wipe their own bottoms

1402
00:57:43,890 --> 00:57:41,619
without help and these are the people

1403
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:43,900
who are guiding our destinies I mean you

1404
00:57:49,620 --> 00:57:47,890
look at the constantly fumbled American

1405
00:57:51,839 --> 00:57:49,630
foreign policy the last twenty years and

1406
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:51,849
that's partly because we are in we're in

1407
00:57:55,020 --> 00:57:53,410
a situation where there is no you see

1408
00:57:56,910 --> 00:57:55,030
there is no functional solution at all

1409
00:57:59,280 --> 00:57:56,920
when an empires going down it's going

1410
00:58:00,450 --> 00:57:59,290
down and no matter what you do it just

1411
00:58:03,300 --> 00:58:00,460
goes down in a different way

1412
00:58:06,089 --> 00:58:03,310
one of the lessons of history but we've

1413
00:58:07,740 --> 00:58:06,099
been really dumb about it we have made

1414
00:58:09,569 --> 00:58:07,750
mistakes but for example the British

1415
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:09,579
Empire was very careful to avoid back in

1416
00:58:16,589 --> 00:58:13,810
its day and the thing is the people who

1417
00:58:18,359 --> 00:58:16,599
run America are not that bright they

1418
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:18,369
like to portray themselves as the

1419
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:20,530
masters of the planet but they're just

1420
00:58:25,890 --> 00:58:23,770
very rich and temporarily in control of

1421
00:58:27,180 --> 00:58:25,900
a big sprawling institutional system

1422
00:58:31,140 --> 00:58:27,190
that has controlled a lot of money and

1423
00:58:32,579 --> 00:58:31,150
power and guys with guns that's all no

1424
00:58:34,980 --> 00:58:32,589
does that mean we should all get out

1425
00:58:36,329 --> 00:58:34,990
there or overthrow them no I mean a

1426
00:58:39,180 --> 00:58:36,339
that's not going to happen be that

1427
00:58:42,180 --> 00:58:39,190
something that they that would be very

1428
00:58:44,550 --> 00:58:42,190
much playing into some of the patterns

1429
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:44,560
they think that they've been worried

1430
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:46,480
about that and trying to build toward

1431
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:49,050
for some time now there are other ways

1432
00:58:54,059 --> 00:58:52,210
to deal with that there are other ways

1433
00:58:56,099 --> 00:58:54,069
to deal with a dysfunctional ruling

1434
00:58:59,910 --> 00:58:56,109
class and a failing Empire in a

1435
00:59:02,910 --> 00:58:59,920
civilizations way down what are some of

1436
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:02,920
your favorite ways and what where might

1437
00:59:08,579 --> 00:59:06,130
people go to find out more about what

1438
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:08,589
you think about that particular little

1439
00:59:12,839 --> 00:59:11,050
piece of this puzzle the books that I

1440
00:59:14,670 --> 00:59:12,849
publish from new society publications

1441
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:14,680
which are all in the future industrial

1442
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:17,530
society most of those touch on these

1443
00:59:23,130 --> 00:59:20,290
issues in one way or another my recent

1444
00:59:24,870 --> 00:59:23,140
book decline and fall the end of empire

1445
00:59:25,780 --> 00:59:24,880
and the future of democracy in 21st

1446
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:25,790
century America

1447
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:27,710
is all about this so that would be a

1448
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:29,210
place that that would be the place that

1449
00:59:34,570 --> 00:59:31,490
I'd recommend people go as for what to

1450
00:59:37,060 --> 00:59:34,580
do it's it's one of those things work

1451
00:59:38,620 --> 00:59:37,070
choose a piece choose one end of the

1452
00:59:41,020 --> 00:59:38,630
puzzle and start putting start putting

1453
00:59:44,020 --> 00:59:41,030
pieces together one of the concepts I

1454
00:59:46,660 --> 00:59:44,030
want to I want to hand our listeners

1455
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:46,670
right now is the concept of what what

1456
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:49,210
postmodern theorists arrows ERX called

1457
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:51,170
dissensus we've all heard about

1458
00:59:54,460 --> 00:59:52,850
consensus right everyone sits down comes

1459
00:59:56,380 --> 00:59:54,470
up with a common idea we all go and do

1460
00:59:57,910 --> 00:59:56,390
it the census is the opposite if

1461
00:59:59,350 --> 00:59:57,920
everybody figure out what part of the

1462
01:00:01,870 --> 00:59:59,360
puzzle they want to work on and we all

1463
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:01,880
go our separate ways and work on it we

1464
01:00:07,030 --> 01:00:04,130
need dissensus right now there is no one

1465
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:07,040
right way there is no one solution the

1466
01:00:10,870 --> 01:00:08,810
solution is for everybody to say okay

1467
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:10,880
this is what i'm going to work on i'm

1468
01:00:14,220 --> 01:00:13,010
going to work on low you know person a

1469
01:00:16,990 --> 01:00:14,230
is going to work on local food

1470
01:00:19,330 --> 01:00:17,000
securities then work on developing the

1471
01:00:20,740 --> 01:00:19,340
farmers markets the local gardens the

1472
01:00:22,690 --> 01:00:20,750
community supported agriculture that

1473
01:00:24,610 --> 01:00:22,700
will enable people to feed themselves as

1474
01:00:26,170 --> 01:00:24,620
industrial corporate agriculture begins

1475
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:26,180
to grind to a halt under the undue

1476
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:28,330
burden of its own economic failures a

1477
01:00:33,820 --> 01:00:30,610
person B is going to work on

1478
01:00:35,110 --> 01:00:33,830
revitalizing local democracy person C is

1479
01:00:37,450 --> 01:00:35,120
gonna work on something else there's a

1480
01:00:39,610 --> 01:00:37,460
million different things to do if we're

1481
01:00:42,310 --> 01:00:39,620
gonna rebuild some kind of humanly

1482
01:00:43,990 --> 01:00:42,320
viable society in the wake of the

1483
01:00:47,770 --> 01:00:44,000
collapse of the Industrial Age but but

1484
01:00:51,940 --> 01:00:47,780
John does the impetus for those actions

1485
01:00:53,830 --> 01:00:51,950
have to be the post-industrial age the

1486
01:00:55,900 --> 01:00:53,840
collapse of everything we know no

1487
01:00:58,420 --> 01:00:55,910
there's a lot of reasons to do it it so

1488
01:01:00,160 --> 01:00:58,430
happens that we that one of the major

1489
01:01:02,230 --> 01:01:00,170
reasons we need to do these things it

1490
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:02,240
does this be cozy system that we're used

1491
01:01:08,380 --> 01:01:06,650
to it's falling apart but there's a lot

1492
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:08,390
of other good reasons to do it you know

1493
01:01:12,220 --> 01:01:10,130
you can get into local food security

1494
01:01:14,740 --> 01:01:12,230
simply because you love the taste of the

1495
01:01:16,510 --> 01:01:14,750
be sort of plastic pseudo vegetables you

1496
01:01:18,610 --> 01:01:16,520
go to the grocery store and then we

1497
01:01:21,340 --> 01:01:18,620
remember that you know locally grown

1498
01:01:23,110 --> 01:01:21,350
locally harvested fresh produce is it's

1499
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:23,120
much better for you and much better

1500
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:25,520
tasting and at the same time you can

1501
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:28,490
connect with yeah all the other people

1502
01:01:34,660 --> 01:01:31,730
around the world who are in the same

1503
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:34,670
situation it's a wonderful way to to

1504
01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:37,490
experience that connection that is real

1505
01:01:41,260 --> 01:01:39,440
on a spiritual level and

1506
01:01:44,140 --> 01:01:41,270
another benefit and it's another reason

1507
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:44,150
to do things again this census is a good

1508
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:45,650
model because it allows for many

1509
01:01:49,690 --> 01:01:47,690
different motivations many different

1510
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:49,700
directions in a problem where there is

1511
01:01:54,100 --> 01:01:50,770
no one solution

1512
01:01:56,350 --> 01:01:54,110
well John your work is wonderful I can't

1513
01:01:58,330 --> 01:01:56,360
believe an hour has flown by so quickly

1514
01:02:01,270 --> 01:01:58,340
I'm sure we could talk more and more

1515
01:02:03,340 --> 01:02:01,280
tell us though what's coming up for you

1516
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:03,350
you've kind of talked a little bit about

1517
01:02:07,420 --> 01:02:05,450
you are a very prolific writer people

1518
01:02:09,190 --> 01:02:07,430
can check out your two blogs there's

1519
01:02:11,350 --> 01:02:09,200
just tons of great stuff I don't know

1520
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:11,360
how you cranked it out like that but you

1521
01:02:15,460 --> 01:02:13,370
do while so many of the posts are

1522
01:02:17,590 --> 01:02:15,470
worthwhile tell us where people can go

1523
01:02:18,250 --> 01:02:17,600
to stay up-to-date on what's going on

1524
01:02:20,410 --> 01:02:18,260
with okay

1525
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:20,420
the to block my two blogs are the arcs

1526
01:02:26,050 --> 01:02:24,050
druid report HTTP colon slash slash the

1527
01:02:28,210 --> 01:02:26,060
Arch Druid report dot blog spot.com

1528
01:02:30,310 --> 01:02:28,220
the other one is the well of galibi it's

1529
01:02:33,370 --> 01:02:30,320
that symmetrical one and that's got a CH

1530
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:33,380
TTP colon slash slash gala base dot blog

1531
01:02:38,890 --> 01:02:36,050
spot.com in terms of stuff that will be

1532
01:02:40,090 --> 01:02:38,900
out shortly the big news is my novel of

1533
01:02:43,090 --> 01:02:40,100
the decline and fall of the United

1534
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:43,100
States Twilight's last gleaming

1535
01:02:47,310 --> 01:02:45,290
it will be out at the end of the at the

1536
01:02:49,330 --> 01:02:47,320
end of October that you should be

1537
01:02:53,470 --> 01:02:49,340
interested to see how people react to it

1538
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:53,480
but yeah great well I'm sure a lot of

1539
01:02:58,390 --> 01:02:56,450
your fans will be anxious to see what

1540
01:03:00,070 --> 01:02:58,400
that's all about well it's been great

1541
01:03:02,620 --> 01:03:00,080
talking to you and getting to know you I

1542
01:03:04,870 --> 01:03:02,630
really appreciate it and I'll definitely

1543
01:03:07,090 --> 01:03:04,880
be following your work maybe have you

1544
01:03:09,430 --> 01:03:07,100
back on sometime in the future thanks

1545
01:03:11,230 --> 01:03:09,440
good I look forward to that thanks again

1546
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:11,240
to John Michael Grier for joining me

1547
01:03:16,270 --> 01:03:13,970
today on skeptic oh I tee up just one

1548
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:16,280
question from this interview and it has

1549
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:18,650
to do with the opening clip which I

1550
01:03:25,030 --> 01:03:21,170
found really a fascinating topic and

1551
01:03:29,230 --> 01:03:25,040
that is on myth and in particular on

1552
01:03:32,740 --> 01:03:29,240
Jon's claim that progress is our

1553
01:03:35,340 --> 01:03:32,750
greatest myth so are we so conditioned

1554
01:03:38,500 --> 01:03:35,350
to this myth of progress this myth of

1555
01:03:41,500 --> 01:03:38,510
technology and innovation that seems to

1556
01:03:44,740 --> 01:03:41,510
be everywhere are we so drawn to that

1557
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:44,750
that we can't see some of the ways that

1558
01:03:50,620 --> 01:03:48,170
we are not progressing and maybe that

1559
01:03:52,870 --> 01:03:50,630
our culture in our society is in some

1560
01:03:55,630 --> 01:03:52,880
ways more fragile and on

1561
01:03:57,670 --> 01:03:55,640
or shaky ground than before that's

1562
01:04:00,490 --> 01:03:57,680
certainly the claim of our guests and

1563
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:00,500
I'd love to hear your thoughts on that

1564
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:03,410
of course the place to do it is through

1565
01:04:12,610 --> 01:04:08,210
the skeptical website at WWF decode calm

1566
01:04:15,220 --> 01:04:12,620
that's ske PTI koat.com where you can

1567
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:15,230
comment on the show right there or click

1568
01:04:20,070 --> 01:04:17,450
on over to the forum or drop me an

1569
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:20,080
e-mail or post me something on Facebook

1570
01:04:24,790 --> 01:04:22,250
so while you're there of course you can

1571
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:24,800
download any of our over 250 previous

1572
01:04:30,220 --> 01:04:27,530
shows they're all there for free mp3

1573
01:04:34,060 --> 01:04:30,230
download you can subscribe on iTunes or

1574
01:04:35,650 --> 01:04:34,070
you can join our RSS feed and hear about

1575
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:35,660
what's going on through that as well

1576
01:04:40,810 --> 01:04:38,450
well that's gonna do it for today I have

1577
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:40,820
a number of interesting shows coming up

1578
01:04:46,990 --> 01:04:44,090
and with this first interview I have a

1579
01:04:49,060 --> 01:04:47,000
new co-producer working with me John

1580
01:04:51,910 --> 01:04:49,070
McGuire is right now listening to this

1581
01:04:54,370 --> 01:04:51,920
audio and chopping it down and making me

1582
01:04:55,990 --> 01:04:54,380
sound halfway intelligent and I

1583
01:04:58,150 --> 01:04:56,000
certainly thank him for that

1584
01:05:00,430 --> 01:04:58,160
so with John's help I think we're gonna

1585
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:00,440
be able to get out more shows that's

1586
01:05:06,430 --> 01:05:03,050
certainly my plan so we're gonna push

1587
01:05:08,650 --> 01:05:06,440
forward at that and see how it goes but